| Posted by: Monotreme at March 26, 2008, 4:17 pm | | Topic: Defining Film Noir . . . Forum: JoBlo | | Well, I guess Lebowski's relentless attempts to clear his name from the whole rug thing can be seen as a kind of obsession. And although in the end he does return to the routine, if you think about it many films-noir don't necessarily end in a tragic ending, like The Maltese Falcon. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: spacemonkey at March 26, 2008, 4:15 pm | | Topic: Defining Film Noir . . . Forum: JoBlo | | Quote: Originally Posted by auge_28 I would not consider Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow remotely Noir . . . but the rest are decent examples of Neo-Noir. I have never seen Crimewave so cannot answer to it. You havent because its the only Raimi/Coens film not to be on DVD. Its a damn shame cause its sooooooo noirish man, theres a storm in the city, its windy, its thundering and lightning through out the whole movie, but strangely enough theres no rain. Just a lot of wind blowing and the city streets are deserted. Bruce Campbell is on it and hes a heal in it. "So what, Im a heal, so what of it?" Very cool movie, I hope one day it reaches its way to DVD. You would defenetly dig it. But its noir mixed with Raimis unique kinetic and hyperactive camera work, and some slapstick for good measure. Its certainly a strange mix, but you know the Coen bros. worked on it, and you know they have always loved the noir genre. And what I meant when I mentioned Sky Captain is that at the very least it has a no... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: auge_28 at March 26, 2008, 4:07 pm | | Topic: Defining Film Noir . . . Forum: JoBlo | | Quote: Originally Posted by Monotreme Agreed about the broader description of the noir genre as being about men unsatisfied with their life and trying too hard to change things around for them. Another element I feel is men getting mixed up with things way beyond their level of control or comprehension and eventually soccuming. For example, Neff getting mixed up with the seminal femme fatale in Double Indemnity; Gillis getting mixed up with Desmond in Sunset Blvd.; simple breadwinner Sam Spade getting mixed up in a crime conspiracy far beyond his abilities in The Maltese Falcon; and examples from neo-noir such as Spade-like simple man Gittes getting mixed up in a massive crime conspiracy in Chinatown, or Lundegaard getting mixed up in a desperate con\kidnapping that goes horribly wrong and just keeps getting worse in Fargo. No argument here. Quote: Originally Posted by Monotreme I also definitely think that the broader definition of what makes a film noir helps define most of the more modern neo-noir films; ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: auge_28 at March 26, 2008, 3:49 pm | | Topic: Defining Film Noir . . . Forum: JoBlo | Quote: Originally Posted by spacemonkey Noir films Ive seen: Crimewave (Raimi and the Coens) The Man Who Wasnt There
Dark City Sin City Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow I would not consider Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow remotely Noir . . . but the rest are decent examples of Neo-Noir.
I have never seen Crimewave so cannot answer to it. Quote: Originally Posted by spacemonkey Plus most of the Universal films which strangely enough is where a lot of film noir had its roots. In old universal films like Dracula, The Mummy and most of all James Whales The Invisble Man, which according to what Ive read about film Noir is the Univesal film that most sticks to the Noir style. I would guess that these films are limited in there relationship to Film Noir . . . I would say that the genres are more likely step siblings of each other. The parent they share is German Expressionism . . . probably based more on Robert Wiene's The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari (1922). Quote: Originally Posted by spacemonkey Ye... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Monotreme at March 26, 2008, 3:45 pm | | Topic: Defining Film Noir . . . Forum: JoBlo | | Agreed about the broader description of the noir genre as being about men unsatisfied with their life and trying too hard to change things around for them. Another element I feel is men getting mixed up with things way beyond their level of control or comprehension and eventually soccuming. For example, Neff getting mixed up with the seminal femme fatale in Double Indemnity; Gillis getting mixed up with Desmond in Sunset Blvd.; simple breadwinner Sam Spade getting mixed up in a crime conspiracy far beyond his abilities in The Maltese Falcon; and examples from neo-noir such as Spade-like simple man Gittes getting mixed up in a massive crime conspiracy in Chinatown, or Lundegaard getting mixed up in a desperate con\kidnapping that goes horribly wrong and just keeps getting worse in Fargo. I also definitely think that the broader definition of what makes a film noir helps define most of the more modern neo-noir films; for instance, I definitely believe that The Big Lebowski is a type of neo-noir in that it feat... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: auge_28 at March 26, 2008, 3:35 pm | | Topic: Defining Film Noir . . . Forum: JoBlo | | Quote: Originally Posted by Monotreme . . . The detective element is crucial, I think, even if the aesthetic can be found in many other films both before and during the classic-noir period. I've also noticed that a very large amount of films-noir take place in Los Angeles. Anyone else noticed this common element? Los Angeles, San Francisco and New York are all featured prominently. Some of the common threads I have noticed between these locations are: Port cities Large enough to not care for the individual Lots of rain Known for shady underground criminals Detective stories are not a necessity, but they are prominent . . . there are other stories for example: Police procedurals (The Naked City 1948), Low level gangsters reaching to far (White Heat 1949), Duped lovers [i](Double Indemnity 1944), Failing writers [i](Sunset Boulevard 1950) and so on. What is most common is men unsatisfied with there lot in life and trying once to often for the proverbial last grab at the brass ring. Quote: Originally Posted by ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Monotreme at March 26, 2008, 3:14 pm | | Topic: Defining Film Noir . . . Forum: JoBlo | | Ahh... I love this genre. Off the top of my head I can't really think of many foreign films-noir except for The Third Man; it is an understandably American genre, originating from the cinematographers of German expressionism who fled the Nazis and were integrated into Hollywood, bringing their visual style along with them. Watch Murnau's "The Last Laugh", for example: Keep the entire movie the way it is without altering a single shot but change the main character from a hotel porter to an aging hard-boiled detective, facing the scorn of those surrounding him and losing his sanity as he attempts to tackle one last impossible case, and it becomes a film-noir. The detective element is crucial, I think, even if the aesthetic can be found in many other films both before and during the classic-noir period. I've also noticed that a very large amount of films-noir take place in Los Angeles. Anyone else noticed this common element? Neo-noir is a different matter, seing as many examples of the genre take eit... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: spacemonkey at March 26, 2008, 3:04 pm | | Topic: Defining Film Noir . . . Forum: JoBlo | | Quote: Originally Posted by auge_28 You are correct that Noir's aesthetics (low-key lighting and psychologically expressive approach to mise-en-scène, et al.) stems from German Expressionism, brought to America after the directors (Fritz Lang, Billy Wilder, Edgar G. Ulmer, Robert Siodmak, et al.) moved here. Mixed with the 1930s French poetic realism, with its romantic, fatalistic attitude and celebration of doomed heroes. But all of this is NOT Film Noir, You get Film Noir when you mix some of what came before with the social/politcle/emotional climate of post-war America. Yes, I understand this, what I meant with my post is that german expressionism and its directors like Lang influenced heavily what is now known as the classical film noir period. Quote: Originally Posted by auge_28 Fritz Langs 1931 version of M was filmed in Germany . . . you are thinking of Joseph Losey 1951 adaptation filmed in L.A . . . which clearly falls into the classic period . . . I have never seen it but critics and audiences hat... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: auge_28 at March 26, 2008, 2:11 pm | | Topic: Defining Film Noir . . . Forum: JoBlo | Quote: Originally Posted by spacemonkey I wouldn't say its exclusively american. I mean it might have started and grown here but its roots go as back as german expressionism and that goes back to the early 1900's. Fritz Lang, for example brought some of his german expressionism to hollywood with M, which has many elements of the noir film, and that one came out in 1931. So Id say that it might have been born in America, but its seeds come from many places, including german expressionism and even further before that. You are correct that Noir's aesthetics (low-key lighting and psychologically expressive approach to mise-en-scène, et al.) stems from German Expressionism, brought to America after the directors (Fritz Lang, Billy Wilder, Edgar G. Ulmer, Robert Siodmak, et al.) moved here.
Mixed with the 1930s French poetic realism, with its romantic, fatalistic attitude and celebration of doomed heroes. But all of this is NOT Film Noir, You get Film Noir when you mix some of what came before with the social/... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: spacemonkey at March 26, 2008, 1:48 pm | | Topic: Defining Film Noir . . . Forum: JoBlo | | I wouldn't say its exclusively american. I mean it might have started and grown here but its roots go as back as german expressionism and that goes back to the early 1900's. Fritz Lang, for example brought some of his german expressionism to hollywood with M, which has many elements of the noir film, and that one came out in 1931. So Id say that it might have been born in America, but its seeds come from many places, including german expressionism and even further before that. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: auge_28 at March 26, 2008, 1:35 pm | | Topic: Defining Film Noir . . . Forum: JoBlo | | Quote: Originally Posted by spacemonkey Film Noir might have started in America but its not exclusively american thats for sure. Theres many foreign films that strive to achieve the noir style. As for your second question, well, that often happens when you are establishing something new. .You dont know you are doing it, but you are. Its like with Heavy Metal for example. The first people who started it, they didnt know they were making what would later be known as "Heavy Metal", they were the creators, the originators of it, they were just doing what came out of their souls through music. Same thing with noir films. They started making these dark, pessimistic films unbeknownst to them. It was just a reflection of the times they were living in. New nor, is trying to imitate that style we just call it Neo-noir cause its beeing done now as opposed to the 40s and 50s. A perfect example of this is the Coen Bros. The Man Who Wasnt There. Its very obvious they were striving to achieve the perfect Noir fil... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: spacemonkey at March 26, 2008, 1:09 pm | | Topic: Defining Film Noir . . . Forum: JoBlo | | Film Noir might have started in America but its not exclusively american thats for sure. Theres many foreign films that strive to achieve the noir style. As for your second question, well, that often happens when you are establishing something new. .You dont know you are doing it, but you are. Its like with Heavy Metal for example. The first people who started it, they didnt know they were making what would later be known as "Heavy Metal", they were the creators, the originators of it, they were just doing what came out of their souls through music. Same thing with noir films. They started making these dark, pessimistic films unbeknownst to them. It was just a reflection of the times they were living in. New nor, is trying to imitate that style we just call it Neo-noir cause its beeing done now as opposed to the 40s and 50s. A perfect example of this is the Coen Bros. The Man Who Wasnt There. Its very obvious they were striving to achieve the perfect Noir film, and they achieved it. But thats an ex... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: auge_28 at March 26, 2008, 12:59 pm | | Topic: Defining Film Noir . . . Forum: JoBlo | | Quote: Originally Posted by the saw is family i don't feel noir is exclusively american. i think it was originally american. i think godard's breathless (while not strictly a noir, it's really about noirs more than anything, it contains many of the classic noir elements). i consider melville's bob le flambeur to be a noir, there are also many other non-american noirs. as for the neo-noir genre, i think they may be a little too self aware, but there are films that fit into the category. brick is a good example of a neo-noir, that while being 100% self aware of what it was doing it still fits into the noir genre.i also think the original noirs were a product of their times and it would be nearly impossible to create a noir film know without some semblance of self awareness. So we seem to be in agreement. With a defining line being Neo-Noir vs. Noir or self-aware vs, not self-aware. There are hundreds of noir aesthetic films made after the classic period (and a couple made before) . . . but I feel they must not... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: the saw is family at March 26, 2008, 12:19 pm | | Topic: Defining Film Noir . . . Forum: JoBlo | | i don't feel noir is exclusively american. i think it was originally american. i think godard's breathless (while not strictly a noir, it's really about noirs more than anything, it contains many of the classic noir elements). i consider melville's bob le flambeur to be a noir, there are also many other non-american noirs. as for the neo-noir genre, i think they may be a little too self aware, but there are films that fit into the category. brick is a good example of a neo-noir, that while being 100% self aware of what it was doing it still fits into the noir genre.i also think the original noirs were a product of their times and it would be nearly impossible to create a noir film know without some semblance of self awareness. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: auge_28 at March 26, 2008, 11:08 am | | Topic: Defining Film Noir . . . Forum: JoBlo | | I watched The Naked City last night and it got me thinking. I remember reading that some folks think Film Noir is exclusively an American form and any film made outside of America falls outside the canon of Film Noir . . . Some of these same people further restrict it by claiming that only American film from the Noir classic period (40's -50's) are canon. I have recently watched Jean-Luc Godard's Alphaville (1965) which is touted as a Film Noir . . . nothing in the film says Film Noir to me other than it being a detective film . . . and that is simply not enough. The Naked City (1950) on the other hand is a superb example of the style, but does it count as a foreign Noir? It falls in the classic period and was conceived in the United States and was not only directed by an American but also stars two American actors—Richard Widmark and Gene Tierney—it is technically a UK production, financed by 20th Century-Fox's British subsidiary, not to mention that Jules Dassin would have filmed it in America ... | | Read Entire Entry |
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